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Scott said:
Allison, I hope my comments in that discussion on Michelle’s site weren’t among those that came across as “there’s a sucker born every minute”, if they did that’s not what I meant or how I approach marketing.
I honestly respect your views and understand what you’re driving at, I’m just not sure it has to be a matter of either/or.
As a marketer, to use your words, I neither want to pick anyone’s pocket nor make love to them… I just want to facilitate the connection between consumer and product in the most efficient manner possible for all.
Sure, sometimes becoming friendly with every customer is optimal, and I do that in some areas of my own business, but is that really required in every aspect?
Can’t I, like the nameless and faceless owner of the local Grocery store just provide customers who want products with those products in an efficient way without interrupting our lives to ask about their kids or telling them my life story? Does there always have to be an intimate relationship created, or can professional relationships between sellers and buyers still exist going forward as you see it?
When I think of it as a consumer, I don’t have time in my life to get to know the owner, manager and sales clerk of every store I visit, even those I frequent often. When I go there I just want the shelves to be full and checkout lines to be short. Make it easy for me to find what I want, buy it and go on about my day.
Isn’t there still room for that model when selling products or services online as well?
You said you hoped for discussion, so I hope my comments and questions are welcomed. I’m honestly curious as to how you feel on my thoughts of personal vs. professional connections existing.
Oh, and are my eyes going bad or is your cat naked? LOL
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Allison Reply:
December 5th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
Scott great to see you over here and I definitely want to start a conversation on this subject, and that is with anyone with any opinion
Remember Cheers, where “everybody knows your name”. There is a basic human need to be recognised. If you go to your local grocery store enough times you will recognise the checkout chick, and if they are working in the right job, they will recognise you.
Think of the pleasure you get when you go to your local coffee shop (or bar I guess) and you are given your “usual” before you even ask for it.
At my local large grocery store they have trained their staff to ask you how your day is going as they take your first item for scanning. They open a direct and personal method of communication from the outset, they don’t sell they just take your money while being pleasant.
Does that encourage me to go back and shop there again, you betcha!
And that is the crux of my argument. Sales letters are designed to attempt to convince someone to buy one product, once. A lot of effort for a once off single sale…
The big boys have seen that this is not a good sales plan so they went A-HA we will use the one product, once of sale strategy on a CONTINUITY program to get more bang for our buck.
Well that’s great, continuity programs done right rock for revenue. But hang on, they still front it with a sales letter trying to twist people’s arms to get them to join up. In trying to create scarcity they shoot themselves in the foot in getting customers who WANT to be there because they have heard through word of mouth that the program is decent.
I should really deconstruct the whole process in a blog post as this answer is going on forever lol
And yep Luna is a Sphynx … best cats in the world…if it has hair, it’s JUST a cat
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# 4 December 2008 at 11:59 pm

Marysia said:
Scott, how does a long sales letter provide customers “with those products in an efficient way”?
I don’t read long sales letters and life is too short to read them. So the perpetrator of the letter hasn’t provided me with anything. IMO they’re downright rude. If you want to be part of a club that believes in hitting folks on the head with a hammer, fine. But expect a lot of people to stay out of the room.
Thank you Allison!
Marysia had something to say about Didja know that every time you edit a post on your blog you go pinging all over the place so that the elves and imps and goblins out there all go rubbin the "services" up the wrong way and your blog gets put out to dry? No, I didn’t know that till recently either. (via FriendFeed)
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Allison Reply:
December 5th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
Marysia i think you feel the same discontent I feel with the “hard sell” types out there.
When you think of the types of people that caused the current financial crisis world wide you may see some connection between those that have no scruples in who they sell, or lend, to, nor the effect it will have in the long run. To those types it is all sales and dollars….with no thought for the living breathing entities that are clicking on the “buy now” button.
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# 5 December 2008 at 9:11 am

Scott said:
Allison, thank you for the warm welcome and I get what you’re saying. However, those friendly gestures are designed to sell…they don’t really care how your day is going. So, how is that really any better from old school marketing?
Yes, the technique is changed around, but the purpose of using it is the same. And in my opinion, it may be slightly less honest when you really think about it. I expect a car salesperson to try and sell me a car, but I’m a little insulted by the salesperson who implies they are my friend just to close the deal.
Ever visited a Blockbuster video store? The second you walk in the door an employee behind the counter (which is placed next to the doors) will say “Hello” with a big smile.
They’re not being nice, they’re doing their job. They’re told to say hello when you enter, because it leads to what they’ll say when you reach the register to check out, which is “Would you like any candy or pop-corn with your movie?”.
It’s a program called “Suggestions Sell”, and they’ve found it works better when the customer feels a personal connection to the clerk, hence the greeting when you enter. It’s designed to encourage you to welcome the clerk’s suggestions.
I’m not saying it doesn’t feel good to the customer, that’s the point of doing it. I’m just saying it’s not an honest connection.
And I’m not comfortable making dishonest gestures designed to trick customers into accepting recommendations from “a friend”. I’d rather just say “What do you need? Here’s what I got, buy it.”
Marysia, with long copy you should be doing several things. Selling the product is first obviously, but also so is heading off any pre-sales email questions by providing plenty of information about the product.
It’s inefficient to spend time in chat or email with a customer when you should have provided the answers to every conceivable question in your copy.
A good piece of long copy doesn’t just hype the benefits of a product, it also lists any skills needed to use it, system requirements for running it and etc.
Giving the specs on what you’re promoting also serves 2 purposes, it heads off tons of pre-sales questions as I said, and it also re-enforces the benefits of the product which helps convert sales.
I don’t want to just tell someone what my product will do, I use the copy to show them how it will do it. I want the customer to clearly see the reason(s) why my product will do what I say it will. It’s sort of like the product giving itself a testimonial I suppose.
I guess I just see it from a different perspective. I don’t feel I’m hitting anybody over the head with long copy, I believe that I’m giving them every chance to make an informed purchasing decision one way or the other.
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Allison Reply:
December 5th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
Scott that “dishonest connection” is exactly what the majority of marketers are delivering today, and the sales letter is part of the malaise.
As much as it would like to be seen as a helpful piece of information by it’s writers, if we are being truthful, it is to get the buyer to short circuit all the normal decision making (common sense thinking) and impulse buy. It is called a sales letter and not a marketing letter for a reason.
Would the same words seem appropriate in a sales letter if there was no “add to cart” button on it? You certainly don’t see such strident language and appalling screaming headlines when reading a brochure for a new car.
I do want to make clear that I am not against giving information to the customer AND having a buy button, by any means. I am against those that use what should be a choice made by consumers based on having all of the facts at their disposal and in their own time.
If you can write your copy and never once think about the dollars, but only think about your customers then you have entered that personal relationship that will make you well liked, well promoted by your customers and I dare say, sleep easier with the thoughts you have done a good deed.
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# 5 December 2008 at 1:39 pm

Marysia said:
Scott, I don’t do long copy so I shouldn’t be doing *anything* with it.
Earlier you wrote:
“Can’t I, like the nameless and faceless owner of the local Grocery store just provide customers who want products with those products in an efficient way without interrupting our lives to ask about their kids or telling them my life story? Does there always have to be an intimate relationship created, or can professional relationships between sellers and buyers still exist going forward as you see it?”
Excuse me Scott, the grocery store equivalent of the long sales letter is a store that sells just one product, and when you go in the store-keeper keeps telling you about how wonderful the product is and how much money you can make from it, and also in there you find there are lots of over-enthusiastic people you don’t know going on at you about how wonderful this product is, and how they don’t normally recommend other people’s products but yada yada and how much money they made with the product, and around the walls are photos of parts of the store-keeper’s bank account, and some of his/her supporters’ banks accounts too, and the store would be long, really long, and …
And “faceless”?! If I entered a store and the store-keeper refused to show his/her face I’d be out like a shot.
“It’s inefficient to spend time in chat or email with a customer when you should have provided the answers to every conceivable question in your copy.”
Thanks for telling me what I “should” have done. When, specifically? Like you know me?!
Marysia had something to say about To clarify: my message earlier re pinged services banning us when we do a lot of editing blog posts was so out of date it went out with the top hat: "This problem has been fixed on WordPress v.20 and above". See the last line here. (via FriendFeed)
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Allison Reply:
December 5th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Love the analogy of the one product shop with pictures of the owner’s bank account around the wall Marysia LOL!
I am sure Scott is as committed to his craft and as such we have to admire that he is willing to stand up for what he thinks is right (not many of the big names seem to be willing, or care,to do that).
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Scott Reply:
December 5th, 2008 at 11:37 pm
Marysia, you took my words a bit too literally. I didn’t mean you specifically should do this or that or anything at all, I was speaking in general that as a marketer who uses long copy “you” (meaning the marketer using the long copy) should be trying to address several goals with it, not just hyping the product.
Same thing with my comments on chat and emails, I didn’t mean you specifically, I again was using “you” to refer to the marketer with the long copy should have addressed those things up front.
Sorry if that wasn’t clear. I wasn’t presuming to know you at all.
I have to ask though, do you really know the owner/manager of every Wal-Mart, Subway, Supermarket and etc. store or franchise you’ve ever shopped at? If they don’t interrupt you while you’re shopping to introduce themselves do you really leave without making any purchases?
I’m being honest and practical about this, I couldn’t tell you if the manager of my local Wal-Mart is a man, woman or alien species. All I know is when I need cheap socks they have them and I can get in and out fast. And as a consumer of cheap socks that’s all I feel that I need to know.
I’m not a jerk who is anti-social (really), but I do have a full and busy life so when I need cheap socks I don’t want to waste time getting to know the seller or hearing about the man troubles of the girl behind the cash register. I just want my socks and to get on with my busy day.
On the same hand, I don’t mind if these people introduce themselves when our paths cross for any reason. That’s common courtesy. But I really don’t want them going out of their way to inject themselves into my life either.
What I’m really saying is I believe there has to be room for both personal and strictly professional relationships out there. Not everything has to become a personal connection, life is too short for that.
I have to add that you went on about marketers selling money making products. I understand your frustrations there, I think it’s a sour market myself, but I just want to add that I’m not really part of that market and I don’t sell products that promise to make anybody money.
I keep a blog about my Internet marketing adventures, so I’m in-touch with the market to that degree, and I’ve also developed scripts for myself to use in the past that I knew would be useful to others and sold those to marketers… but I’m not out there hocking get rich quick schemes with my long copy.
I focus in markets where I can offer information or help in learning real skills such as certain crafts, developing artistic talents, basic level programming and similar types of markets.
These are all things where I’ve had personal or professional accomplishments and feel qualified to speak on the subjects.
I just wanted to be clear because it almost sounds like you’re not against the long copy format as much as you’re against the way 1 group of marketers have abused it.
I would agree with that argument. The IM and MMO so-called gurus often go over-board with everything they do and at times it’s disgusting. Have you noticed how many product launches have come along since the economy tanked? They’re taking advantage of people’s hard times.
But that isn’t me. I use the long copy format because as I’ve said I believe it gives me the best way to present the most possible information for customers to make an informed purchasing decision.
Allison thinks it’s just a way to convince people into buying, my disagreement with that is if I didn’t give all the information up front then I’d have unhappy buyers saying I should have told them “this or that” about the product beforehand.
I know this is getting long (irony? LOL) but it’s been my experience over the last 13 years since I made my first dollar online, that an informed customer is less likely to complain about or request a refund for their purchase. And an informed customer knows what to expect from their purchase, so if you deliver that they will be more likely to purchase your future offerings as well.
Given my experience that’s mostly come without having to get intimate with the majority of my customers, I just don’t see the real advantage or upside for me or my customers in projecting myself into their lives and demanding they spend their time getting to know me more personally, or investing my time getting to know all of them more personally. A professional relationship seems to fit the needs of them and myself perfectly.
I love that the web has become so much more social. Services allow me to keep up to date with people I find interesting, like Allison and Michelle McPhearson for example, but I don’t think it has to become the venue for Microsoft of anyone else I’ve purchased products from to keep “connected” with me. I find that idea a little invasive, and ultimately it would lead to me turning away from online socializing.
It may be good for some people in some markets, and I’m okay with that, but do you really want every sales department in the world tracking your Twitter or Friendfeed discussions looking for ways to inject themselves into your lifestream?
I’d rather keep some professional relationship boundaries in place myself.
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# 5 December 2008 at 7:15 pm

Lisa Hartwell said:
This has really got me thinking about the people I do business with.
When I first came online, it was all about the sales letter and we were being encouraged to sell through sales letters in every market. And I bought many things through reading a sales letter that pressed all my buttons. But the people I buy from again and again, the people who encourage the raving fan in me, are not those who write the best long-form sales letter but those that build up a relationship with me Online and communicate complete passion for what they do and sell. Initially that was through emails, but increasingly it has included podcasts, teleseminars, video, blogging, Twitter….
When a marketer clearly cares about their job, their products and their customers it is communicated and people want to buy. You also feel that the person will still be around if you have any problems. There is always less likelihood of buyer’s remorse if you have some relationship with the seller, you trust their judgements and recommendations, and you know you have somewhere to turn if things don’t work out. And, yes, you can do this and sell through sales letters, but goodwill is a much harder thing to track.
Thinking about the people I buy from regularly: I’m more likely to buy a sandwich from the shop where the women are welcoming, clearly love their job, remember me, chat about what’s been happening since they last saw me and have a laugh and a joke, than I am from the local Subway where they are sullen, miserable and impersonal. And that’s regardless of the product they sell.
Online I usually buy my books and DVDs from Amazon. They aren’t always the cheapest and I know they are a big company looking to make lots of money, but they make the buying experience simple and stress-free. They are reliable and have built trust over the years. They remember what I have bought and try to help me find the next good book to read. They ask for my feedback if I buy from an external seller through them, and try to over deliver in terms of delivery times and standards. I know this is mainly automated and selling tactics on Amazon’s behalf, but it works!
I also think it is important to bear in mind WHO you are selling to. In the IM world we have become used to selling and being sold to through sales letters. We expect them, and the marketers fulfill our expectations. But in other markets it can be downright confusing for people to come across a sales letter when they are looking to buy something. I am in a couple of niches that are very female focussed and they are both niches that for different reasons seek out other women to communicate, share and hang out with. They want to know who is selling to them and what they know about the topic. They want to know they can trust me before they buy. They don’t want to know this by reading a sales letter – they want to see me chatting in forums or through emails, twittering and releasing relevant videos. They want to email me and get a personal response back. When they buy, they want to discuss what they have bought.
Alejandro Reyes just released a short interview with Gary Vaynerchuk and they talk about the importance of connecting with people, with passion:
http://successfool.com/gary-vaynerchuck-interview-that-will-rock-your-face-off/
I think in the IM world we are starting to see quite a backlash against people emailing constantly with news of the next big launch of a product that “my good buddy” is releasing. It’s a shame because some of these products are excellent, but anyone who has received just a few of these emails starts to get weary (and wary) of them. The people they are REALLY listening to are those that are writing on their favourite blogs, making original videos, holding podcasts and teleseminars, twittering about their lives (and products) and generally interacting. Have you noticed how many folks use Twitter when they have a product launch approaching but then disappear again as soon as they have sold – that is not the way to connect with people and make them feel valued.
I’m sorry but I’m not only interested in the selling and making money aspect of marketing. I DO care about what my buyers (and potential buyers) want and think and need. I DO care about relationships. I know I can’t please everyone all of the time but relationships are important to me in my private life and so they should be in my business life too.
Oh dear, this could have been a blog post in itself! Seems this topic is bringing out the writers in us all! Sorry if I rambled
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# 6 December 2008 at 1:05 am

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